“There’s a huge difference between building a church and building a crowd,” he said. “There’s a huge difference between having a movement with results and having a movement with eternal results.”?~ Dr. Ergun Caner
No words said have ever been more true. Dr.David Allen once spoke similar words at one of the pastors conferences in Jacksonville Fl, “Heaven help us to know the difference between a crowd and a church”. The ABP recently reported on the debate over the use of the Camel Method in reaching Islamic people. My concern does not just end with the heretical method but the attitude toward scripture by the person who developed it. Kevin Greeson a Southern Baptist Missionary is the developer of this heresy and what is more alarming is his lack of faith in the word of God and his failure to rely on the Holy Ghost in evangelism.
The use of contextualization has lead to serious theological error and the setting aside of God’s word. “Culture” and “contextualization” are fast becoming a religion in and of themselves and an excuse to give credibility to everything under the sun. Recently Greeson said “They didn’t believe in Jesus as the Son of God or in His resurrection. They did not acknowledge the authority of the Bible, so quoting scripture was useless.” Mr. Greeson that is the way of all the lost. Lost people always reject God, His Son, and His word. Paul made this clear in 1 Cor 1:18 when he said that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the lost and he goes on to say that God chose preaching to win the lost. What God did not say was to build bridges by using their false religions. God did not say use any method under the sun outside of scripture under the guise of contextualization. And God did not say that using scripture is ever “useless” in presenting the gospel. In fact God did say that when His word is spoken it goes out and accomplishes all that He intended.
But now some in the convention would ignore scripture and turn to the wisdom of men rather than the “foolishness of preaching” which is the only prescribed method given by God in His word. I am concerned that the reason for the need of the conservative resurgence is alive and well in our convention. When our pastors and or missionaries hold the view that scripture is ever useless then they should, everyone of them, be pulled from their position. We need men of God who are convinced that the word of God is the only standard for faith and practice and it is completely reliable at all times and there is no other method or bridge that should replace it for reaching the lost. Kevin Greeson needs to have his commission pulled.
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Huck/Pac
Florida Baptist Convention
Florida Baptist Witness
Southern Baptist Convention
As is often the case with these type blogs/rants, it starts out with a mis-statement and builds an argument from there. Kevin Greeson never said Scripture was useless. What he said was quoting Scripture to someone who refuses to accept the authority of Scripture is worthless. There’s a big difference. And 1st Corinthians 1:18 doesn’t really say that “Preaching of the cross is foolishness”, it says that the message of the cross is foolishness. From there it’s really a great leap of logic to say that the only prescribed method for us to reach the lost is through preaching. Paul didn’t preach to the Philippian jailer. Philip didn’t preach to the Ethiopian. Jesus didn’t preach to Nicodemus, the Samaritan woman, or the woman caught in adultry. In fact, without doing a word study to be sure, I’d guess there are more examples in Scripture of the Gospel being spread through non-preaching events than preaching events.
I encourage you to go back read Acts 17. I haven’t read Kevin Greeson’s book nor studied about The Camel, but from reading the reviews it sounds a awful lot like what Paul did with the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers.
There was no mis-statement as I quoted him in full. If you want credibility you need to acknowledge facts rather than making up your own. Paul met with the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers and then called them superstitious for believing in an unknown God. That fails to resemble the Camel Method in any way, shape, or form. He told them to repent not use man’s false religion or philosophy to build a bridge.
! Cor 1:18 does say that to the lost the preaching of the cross is foolishness. You should travel over there and actually read it.
So what is clear here is I never mis-quoted Greeson and provided his full quote as was given in the ABP article. Nor did I mis-represent 1 Cor 1:18. Sorry for your error.
Now that is hilarious! I clicked on the link that you put in your response for 1 Corinthians 1:18 and here’s what comes up: “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” The Greek word is Logos, is a noun, and is most consistently translated message or word, as your link shows. Preaching is not a good translation at all and the KJV missed on this one. The translation I prefer says “The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.”
But back to the main point. Yes, you did include the entire quote from Kevin Greeson, which is good. Since I haven’t read the book, that’s how I know what he said, because you included his entire quote. But you titled your blog “When Scripture become useless” and that is the presumption of your writing, that Greeson believes Scripture is useless. And that’s not at all what Greeson said. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, and if so, I apologize. But it sure sounded to me like you were saying that Greeson thinks Scripture is useless.
Now, Acts 17 – Again the word is not translated right in the KJV. Paul called them religious, not superstitious. And it sounds exactly like what Greeson seems to be doing. He began a conversation based on where they were and what they understood, and that led (at least for some) to saving faith in Jesus Christ. Paul even went so far as to tell them that the unknown god was the God he was preaching and teaching about.
Like I said, I don’t know Kevin Greeson and I haven’t read The Camel, but based on what I’ve seen, he’s to be commended for being willing to put his life on the line and do whatever it takes to win to Christ people most of us would be afraid to talk to. I would suggest prayers lifted up for Kevin Greeson would be far more appropriate than stones cast in his direction.
Your false distinctions over the KJV are irrelevant to this discussion. There should never be an instance when we think scripture is useless. Greeson thinks there are. When a SBC missionary says scripture is useless as Greeson has regardless of the context then he should be decommissioned. It was that low view of scripture that created the resurgence.
As far as doing whatever it takes to win people to Christ, such is not possible.
“There’s a huge difference between building a church and building a crowd,” he said. “There’s a huge difference between having a movement with results and having a movement with eternal results.”?~ Dr. Ergun Caner
Just because a claim is made to be winning people to Christ does not mean that is what is actually occurring.
So… I was right. Greeson didn’t say Scripture is useless, but you have enough supernatural insight to know that’s what he meant.
False distinctions? So you are you saying the word isn’t Logos, or logos doesn’t mean word or message? Should John 1 read In the beginning was the preaching and preaching was with God and the preaching was God? Somehow just doesn’t quite have the same ring to it.
Not sure who Dr. Caner is, but my experience has been that usually someone who talks a lot about the difference between building a church and drawing a crowd is someone who doesn’t have the ability to draw a crowd. You can’t build a church unless you can draw a crowd. And yes, I know, Christ builds the church, and only the Holy Spirit can draw men to Christ. But it is funny how when someone is being effective at evangelism, it is automatically assumed that it’s just a crowd and not a church. My guess would be that where Greeson is, people take their faith in Jesus very serious, since it cost them, at best, their families and friends, and quite possibly their lives.
I’m regretting getting drawn into this discussion. It would appear from your responses that you are a kjv only, hyper calvinist that is content to reside inside your religious box, not really caring about the fact that people around you lost and bound for an eternity in hell. Sure, if they clean up and come to your church, you’ll preach to them and I’m sure you’ll do a good job of sharing the Gospel in your sermon. The problem is most aren’t going to come to your church and they won’t listen to you preach.
It’s your blog, so you’ll get the last word. Pick a good rock and fire away
No you are not right. He did say scripture is useless when reaching the lost Muslims. I provided the quote and the link to the original article. Scripture should never be presented as useless regardless of the context. His own words provides understanding into what he meant.
Dr. Caner is the President of Liberty University. He was born a Turkish Muslim and converted at 18. His credibility on this issue far outweighs Greeson.
As far as who I am I am not KJV only and think such mindsets are absurd. But neither am I against the KJV. I do not hold to Calvinism is an abhorrent religion of man that teaches God created some men to simply damn them and they will never be reached out to by God. It is an evil doctrine and I will have nothing to do with it.
Because I refuse to use man made methods does not add up to not caring about the lost around me. It is because I do that I have a concern to do things God’s way and not man’s. Your assumptions about me are unfounded and childish.
Don’t be a silly. Do you seriously think that the IMB trustees would allow an IMB missionary to remain on the mission field if he/she believed what you are claiming about Greeson? It’s foolishness to think such.
The article from the ABP that you are referencing goes on to explain…”Proponents of the Camel Method say it isn’t intended to be a full presentation of the gospel message but a point of connection with a goal of leading Muslims to accept Christ as revealed in the Bible while retaining their ethnic identity in an Islamic culture.”
Here is a classic visual example of what Greeson is talking about… watch here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_5aQOGlWQE
Listen closely my friend. The expert on the video says, “Well, I would probably want E to begin by showing how we get to the gospel and how we bring somebody to…”
It is not my claim it is his words as reported by the ABP
the lesson here is, “don’t take words out of context”. read the entire article. even better, go read the entire book by Greeson. you need to own up to your own blog, “When scripture becomes useless”.
then you go on and on in your blog with the assumption that Greeson doesn’t have faith in the Bible. you even insight your readers to join a movement of firing Greeson from his mission board. This reflects poor judgment on your part. Dig deeper, don’t make decisions and come to conclusions on surface information that you know is sketchy.
On page 19 of the Camel book, in the chapter called “Foundations” Greeson writes: “Biblical authority. While the Qur’an’s teachings about Allah may echo many of the truths about God that were first revealed in the Bible, we must never confuse the Qur’an with the Word of God. Apart from the Bible, we have no revelation of the Father’s agape love for us, Christ’s saving death and resurrection for us, or the Holy Spirit’s dynamic power within us” (p. 19). The book goes on to extend “The Apostle John’s warning in Revelation…when he wrote: ‘I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life…’[Revelation 22:18-19a, NIV]” (p. 19).
Does this sound like someone who believes the Bible is useless?
You owe someone an apology!
This post is not about the camel method although it is very problematic. It is about his statement
“They didn’t believe in Jesus as the Son of God or in His resurrection. They did not acknowledge the authority of the Bible, so quoting scripture was useless.”
Quoting scripture should never be considered useless. Never! And it should always be primary. He said quoting scripture was useless, those were his words and it does not matter what context such an idea is placed in although I did provide the entire quote in its context.
As far as inciting anyone to join any movement well…you will not find that in my post anywhere. Stating my view on my blog does not equal asking people to join a movement.
Anyone regardless of who it is who sees scripture as useless in any context has a low view of scripture. Period. Maybe you should deal with his statement instead of dancing around it.
use your imagination…do you think that Greeson concluded his training with “so the use of scripture was useless.” What are the chances of Greeson going on further to say, “so in order to start with someone who refuses to believe the Bible is true…you can use a bridge to help them…”
I seriously doubt an IMB missionary, surrounded by a large degree of accountability is going to say that the Bible is useless.
Recently Greeson said “They didn’t believe in Jesus as the Son of God or in His resurrection. They did not acknowledge the authority of the Bible, so quoting scripture was useless.”
i went back and re-read the original ABP article, it says, “From there he developed the Camel Method as a way to treat Muslims with respect while challenging them to confront their own sacred writings as a bridge to the gospel.”
there you have it. if he believed that the Bible was useless, why would he have the Gospel as his target and end goal?
I made a simple search and found a follow-up to the ABP article. Dr. Garrison (IMB) explains the Camel Method. Low and behold my suspicion is confirmed, the Greeson does believe the Bible is valuable and useful. Garrison said, “For us, it is not about a tool for arguing or beating up a Muslim verbally, but it is a way to begin a conversation that clearly leads to Jesus and then invites them to come into our holy book. From there they can read enough about Isa to find that he is in fact God’s gift of salvation for everyone.”
The follow-up article can be found, http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100224/missions-expert-clears-up-confusion-over-muslim-outreach-tool/index.html
Doing our homework on public websites such as yours is the responsible thing to do instead of inciting people with headlines like, “When Scripture becomes useless” and suggesting that we fire the heretic missionary.
Your talking about everything else but his statement. Deal with his statement.
here is something else i just found (I have a copy of Ergun’s book, “Unveiling Islam”). This comes from page 82.
Caner tells a story about a college freshman by the name of Tony and his Muslim friend Asklar. Tony is overcome with frustration with his attempts to share the Gospel with Asklar. Each time Tony would share biblical text from his evangelism training, Asklar would repudiate his biblical text with Islamic teaching. The story concludes with the following (I quote) “To reach his friend, Tony must first learn about the book Asklar was always reading.”
This sounds exactly like the Camel Method.
Deal with Greeson’s statement
i did in detail. I analyzed his statement in context, found another sentence in the ABP article that shed light on Greeon’s statement, I looked around other blogs to see if there is supporting evidence of my hypothesis and came to the conclusion that your blog has taken Greeson’s statement out of context and jumped to a far fetch conclusion.
Greeson does not beleive the Bible is useless. There is no evidence anywhere that suggests this. Unless you take his statement out of context
No you haven’t. He is the one who used the word “useless” and my point is that scripture should never be considered “useless” in any context, but especially in any context involving evangelism. His word not mine.
if you really believe that Greeson maintains that the Bible is useless, call the IMB today (1-800-999-3113) and ask to speak to Dr. Clyde Meador, Vice President. Tell him that you insist on him firing Greeson.
I guarantee you that if the IMB leadership discovers that they have a missionary who believes that the Bible is useless in any way, shape, or form, or at any time…they will give him/her an immediate one way ticket home.
Again deal with his quote instead of dancing around and assuming he meant other than what he said.
I’m sure I’ll regret this, but I’ll try one more time. Here’s the quote – Recently Greeson said “They didn’t believe in Jesus as the Son of God or in His resurrection. They did not acknowledge the authority of the Bible, so quoting scripture was useless.”
Greeson very plainly states that QUOTING Scripture to someone that does not accept the authority of Scripture is useless. Greeson does not say that Scripture is useless, as you have wrongly accused him of saying. You were wrong to title your blog “When Scripture is useless.” You should be ashamed for attacking a man who, obviously, is risking his life daily in a hostile land for the Gospel and the Christ that is revealed in the very Scriptures you say he believes is useless.
The title does not do what you accuse it of. No missionary should ever say scripture is “useless” in any situation. That is the point of the post. I did not post that he said scripture is always useless and the title does not imply that. The use of the word “when” implies a needed context. The context is the quote by Greeson which I provide in full in the post.
No SBC Missionary should ever believe scripture is useless. Ever. That should be grounds for pulling him out of the field. No part of scripture ever suggests that it is ever useless. Just because the lost is not willing to hear it does not make it useless. Building bridges does not reach the lost. It is only the word of God. Romans 10:17, Isaiah 55:11, 1 Cor 1:27, , 1 Cor 2:2
The reason the lost refuse to hear the gospel is not because of not accepting its authority but because their hearts are evil. John 3:19-21
We need to be guided by scripture in reaching the lost. Not man made hyper-pragmatism.